Macmillan Meets… Caroline Nugent, HR Director and Non-Executive Director at CIPD

In this issue of ‘Macmillan Meets…’ Ant Coen, Principal Consultant at Macmillan Davies speaks to Caroline Nugent, an experienced and award-winning HR Director in the Public and Third sectors, having worked for businesses such as The Financial Ombudsban, London Borough of Havering and Basildon Borough Council. Here, Caroline tells us why she is passionate about HR professionals moving into senior leadership roles, why she enjoys working in the public sector, and gives us her insight and advice for the future generation of HR professionals.

Tell me about your career to date

I started as an apprentice many years ago in a large London borough and haven’t looked back. I didn’t want to go to university as I was in a relationship (and have since married him so it was the right choice!). I’ve had the chance to work across many areas including housing, depot work, central services but found my love in HR. I’ve worked in every area HR touches which has been so good and has given me an in depth understanding of all aspects of the business – now, as a director I understand how hard a simple task can look on the face of it. When you’ve been there when the photocopier breaks – just as your boss needs vital papers, it makes you realise that every job is important.

Having worked for over 35 years, I have taken the lovely opportunity to have a short sabbatical. I love working in the HR and leadership fields, but there is something important about having some time out to recharge your batteries. A lot more people are reviewing both what they do and when they do it, and that is not exclusive to senior staff. I know of friends who are again making lifestyle choices and leaving to take up new career choices. My sister for example, has become the best carer in the world for her lovely elderly clients keeping them in their own homes. I certainly think the pandemic has played a part in people reconsidering what they do, and it is absolutely critical to remember to have a work life balance. We are no good to anyone if we aren’t well, both physically and mentally, we have had to deal with a lot over the past couple of years.

After my sabbatical I want to go into work knowing where I can add value. Doing the right thing is very important to me, and I love coaching and helping people bring out the very best in themselves. I also love helping organisations change, but always doing it properly; that doesn’t mean taking too long, but it does mean doing it right. If you are, for example, making people redundant, always remember this is a human who has a life outside of work and the impact this decision is making. Something like outplacement might cost a little but if it ends up getting people reemployed sooner, it’s a win for the economy, a win for the new employer, a win for those left behind who see the compassion, and above all a win for the person personally impacted.

What do you enjoy about working in the Public and Third sectors?

I truly believe in making sure our public services, which often include working with Private sector partners (as many a time we’ve outsourced work), are doing what they need to do to keep our communities healthy and thriving. So many people have no idea how vast Public and Third sector work opportunities and remits are. I’ve really seen a difference to people’s lives through the work we do and I’m very proud of that.

I also loved the fact that as there is often very little money available, people’s initiative and drive is astounding. The sense of partnership working and sharing great ideas is also something I’ve driven and actively been a part of for many years. The work has been recognised through winning awards for great collaboration - either through social work recruitment across London or for designing an e-learning platform across Essex when this form of training was only just starting. I’ve even had the chance to work with other countries to share best practice. This led to me speaking at a conference in Sweden and working with Swedish local authorities who were only on the beginning of their collaborative working journey.

People also think the Public sector isn’t commercial as you don’t need to make a profit for a company, but that is wrong. I’ve been involved in selling services to raise income for local authorities so that other money can be directed to front line services instead. I’ve had to use my negotiation skills over the years to get a great deal for things such as training, or for psychometric testing or to negotiate terms and conditions for staff with trade unions - this is all to keep costs down.

As someone that is passionate about seeing HR professionals develop into senior leadership roles, can you tell us more about why you feel HR professionals make great leaders?

Good HR people understand both an organisation but also who works within it and the impact managers can have day to day. We’ve all heard the saying “you leave a manager not an organisation/job” and it is so true. You can get the same piece of work done, but it’s how it is achieved which impacts the long-term sustainability of an organisation or team. People are prepared to roll up their sleeves when its needed, but they also expect something in return when they might have something going on at home.

I’ve heard stories of CEOs who have such an impact that people ask the receptionist what mood they are in, so they know whether to avoid them. That’s just bonkers! How can they be working at their best when they are too worried as to how someone reacts. They will be spending more time worrying than working and just getting on with their job. HR people are often very good at understanding how these leaders work – they can seek more honest feedback or look at psychometric profiling assessments. I personally trained in these tests as I was fascinated how often they are proved right (especially when people are under pressure), and self-awareness is critical. Obviously, not all HR/People profession leaders are great or self-aware, but over the years I’ve seen those that are, be more successful and move on to other organisations on their own grounds, rather than through organisational restructures.

I also think that being resilient is a great skill that several HR professionals have had to become great at. Whether it is your chairman, a political leader or your CEO asking you the impossible, you have to brush yourself down and find a way to make it work.

Unfortunately, it is still uncommon for HR professionals to be the top leader in any organisation. It still appears that having a financial background is more likely to see you become a CEO. However, those HR professionals who have taken the top jobs have shown real strong leadership qualities. You can learn new skills, such as better budget management, but you will always revert to your preferred style of leadership. As a CEO, having a wider leadership breadth is, in my mind, more important than being a specialist in a certain field. Certainly, the successful CEOs and leaders I’ve known and worked with, all understand their people and are relatable. People can see through false behaviours - authenticity as a leader is critical.

Part of why I became a President of the Public Services People Managers’ Association (PPMA) and a NED at the CIPD was because I want to see more HR professionals develop. The PPMA runs great development events from apprentice level to aspiring directors. I’ve felt so privileged to see the journeys of some of those people who attended and where they have ended up in their careers. Mentoring and coaching others is something I thrive on and when I leave an organisation, I want to know that I am leaving behind capable people who will make their own future career choices, and I’ve been part of their journey.

What are some of the core skills you feel HR professionals need in order to really add help organisations progress?

As I mentioned earlier, resilience and negotiation skills are critical. I think it’s interesting that the industrial relationship eras I grew up working and learning in are back in demand. Over the years I’ve spoken to senior HR professionals who haven’t had the opportunity to work with Trade Unions and therefore haven’t built up those skills. Partnership means partnership, whoever you are working with. We might differ and have to agree to disagree but ultimately, we all need businesses to survive. Understanding and building those relationships is critical for trust.

Understanding budgets and thinking commercially are key. It’s impractical to come up with a fantastic learning and development programme for all managers if there either isn’t the budget to do it, or the timing is just wrong, for example, if the organisation is downsizing. However, if you feel the timing is critical, then your influencing and constructive challenging skills need to come to the fore. There are ways to get your point across and you might need to try a few different ways to do this, so tenacity is key.

I also find that being curious or inquisitive (some call it being professionally nosy!) and being highly skilled at problem solving are key. There is not always a singular answer in the majority of issues brought to senior people in HR. You need question to get to the real issue, and then sometimes give two or three solutions to a manager for them to make a decision - as not every answer is either right or wrong. That’s why some people find it hard to work in HR as they want to decide for people. That’s not our job. Our job is to offer guidance and professional options, it’s up to a manager if they take it – although of course if someone is telling them to do something and they chose not to, you know you will have to be there to pick up the pieces. Sometimes they only need to ignore HR once and they learn! This is when key skills of mentoring and coaching are great tools to help talk things through.

More and more, data and having evidenced based decisions has come to the top of the HR toolkit of skills. You have to use data to inform decisions and see where there may be issues. A great example of this is for inclusion and diversity. Until you delve into the data to see any differences in protected characteristics you can’t resolve an issue. Do you know where your talent is dropping off through different stages in recruitment, performance management or promotion? Do you know if intersectionality is playing a big part? Its only when you know an issue can you start to provide solutions. If you are not using your data enough, start using your inquisitive skills to ask the question. In the past, my teams have known when I’m going to push them to the limit and ask all the questions they haven’t yet got the answers to. And then when they have the data analysed, it’s like a eureka moment.

Self-awareness is key. You need to know yourself, your areas of strength and your areas of weakness – we all have them. And those areas you are weaker in, you can develop. And finally, confidentiality goes without saying. No one wants to have their confidential issues discussed or shared so this is core for anyone in HR, from the most junior to the most senior role.

And finally, the CIPD profession map has pulled a lot of skills, knowledge and expertise required perfectly and highlights expectations for different levels so you can see how you need to develop. Part of being a great HR professional is to continually develop and learn.

The pandemic has taught businesses a lot about the value of HR, but is there still a way to go until the full potential for HR as a function is realised?

Unfortunately, yes, I think there is still some way to go. The challenging times of Covid brought people management to the fore. The CIPD website was inundated with people seeking help on issues that they had never dealt with before. Who had heard of furlough before Covid! We have to earn our stripes and show our value so that businesses realise that HR is needed as a strategic and operational partner every day. We are still perceived in some places as the police and the images portrayed in the media or television don’t do the function justice. Most people think HR tell you when you can’t do something, recruit people and sack people. There are so many key tasks in HR, and we need to make sure our individual organisations see the value-added HR. This comes back to what I said earlier about using data and making evidence-based decisions.

The CIPD is internationally recognised in the people profession, why is being CIPD qualified and retaining CIPD membership important as an HR professional?

The pandemic showed how many HR professionals need support, and you get this support through being a CIPD member. Why would you want an accountant who wasn’t qualified – the same goes for HR. If you aren’t continually developing, how are you keeping up with legislative and case law changes. You could be putting your organisation in a very difficult position if you get the fundamentals wrong. There’s also a great learning platform for members. Some organisations only have tiny HR departments so you need to get support, and if you don’t have time or resources to get information, then you can use the CIPD resources to help your research. Becoming a Fellow shows that I’m competent and the CIPD membership is internationally recognised in the people profession. It showcases your knowledge, behaviours and impact in today’s workplace, and demonstrates your commitment to the highest professional standards with 160,000 members worldwide.

Can you tell us about any upcoming events and topics that the CIPD will be focussing on?

Inclusion and diversity are still a key focus for the CIPD, in order to ensure fairness for employees, but also for those customers who use our services and expect to be treated with dignity. Tackling racism in the workplace is unfortunately still an issue, and HR has to lead on this to ensure it’s eliminated. The ethnicity pay gap for example, is still not mandatory for reporting unlike the gender pay gap. As HR we should be pushing our organisations to look at the data and if it’s uncomfortable reading then it’s an area we can support and challenge so it gets better. The CIPD are trying to get people to look at the data and push the evidence-led focus.

Another key area is flexible working. The CIPD’s Flex From 1st campaign is encouraging employers to support flexible working for all and the right to request flexible working from day-one of employment. They are calling for a change to UK law to make flexible working requests a day-one right for all employees. At present, UK law states that employees can only request to work flexibly after 26 weeks of employment, with a limit of one request per 12-months. This needs to change. Covid has shown how effectively people can work from home and we need to retain good employees which this can do. It’s important that we retain our teamwork and partnership working but giving consideration to flexibility when people have so much going on in their personal lives, whether it’s financial challenges or caring for elderly or disabled parents. If it’s a win for both, why wouldn’t employers want to do this?

To recognise those who are going above and beyond and partnering exclusively with the CIPD to grow the next generation of people professionals, the CIPD have developed the CIPD People Development Partner. Some great organisations have become partners through this, including Civil Service HR, Network Rail and Tesco. It’s great that employers want to support and develop their teams.

What is the best piece of career advice you have received?

Do things outside of your comfort zone and don’t say no to a stretching piece of work unless you know it’s outside of your capability (if it is outside of your capacity, negotiate to move something so it’s not). And if it is outside of your capability now, learn it!

Get in touch

Should you wish to have a confidential chat with Ant Coen to discuss the current HR market and where we can help with inclusive recruitment or your search for work/recruiting into your team, please contact him directly at acoen@mdhr.co.uk 

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